Comments on: A Warning About the Real Cost of Microformats http://getluky.net/2009/01/08/a-warning-about-the-real-cost-of-microformats/ Mon, 09 Jan 2012 10:13:49 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: links for 2009-02-06 - paulcarvill.com http://getluky.net/2009/01/08/a-warning-about-the-real-cost-of-microformats/comment-page-1/#comment-310752 links for 2009-02-06 - paulcarvill.com Fri, 06 Feb 2009 23:04:01 +0000 http://getluky.net/?p=400#comment-310752 <p>[...] getluky.net » A Warning About the Real Cost of Microformats People are still discussing the relative benefits of microformats? (tags: microformats) [...]</p> [...] getluky.net » A Warning About the Real Cost of Microformats People are still discussing the relative benefits of microformats? (tags: microformats) [...]

]]> By: Andrew Jaswa http://getluky.net/2009/01/08/a-warning-about-the-real-cost-of-microformats/comment-page-1/#comment-310751 Andrew Jaswa Thu, 05 Feb 2009 23:34:50 +0000 http://getluky.net/?p=400#comment-310751 <p>I think I agree with you. I've always supported Microformats and will continue to do so. However I think that adding <em>any</em> sort of semantics to your markup is beneficial, even if those semantics are broken Microformats. </p> <p>I've always taken the stance to use useful Microformats. By this I mean, can a Microformat be used by someone of average computer skill. The only one that could fit into this category is hCard. Still, though, the user would have to know it exists and use the appropriate browser plug-in. </p> <p>Microformats aren't for general consumption yet and who knows if they ever will be.</p> I think I agree with you. I’ve always supported Microformats and will continue to do so. However I think that adding any sort of semantics to your markup is beneficial, even if those semantics are broken Microformats.

I’ve always taken the stance to use useful Microformats. By this I mean, can a Microformat be used by someone of average computer skill. The only one that could fit into this category is hCard. Still, though, the user would have to know it exists and use the appropriate browser plug-in.

Microformats aren’t for general consumption yet and who knows if they ever will be.

]]> By: getluky.net » Costs of Microformats, cont. http://getluky.net/2009/01/08/a-warning-about-the-real-cost-of-microformats/comment-page-1/#comment-310732 getluky.net » Costs of Microformats, cont. Tue, 13 Jan 2009 20:19:10 +0000 http://getluky.net/?p=400#comment-310732 <p>[...] My earlier post about the costs of microformats led to some interesting comments that I’d like to respond to at the top level here. [...]</p> [...] My earlier post about the costs of microformats led to some interesting comments that I’d like to respond to at the top level here. [...]

]]> By: Shira http://getluky.net/2009/01/08/a-warning-about-the-real-cost-of-microformats/comment-page-1/#comment-310731 Shira Mon, 12 Jan 2009 16:55:09 +0000 http://getluky.net/?p=400#comment-310731 <p>It seems to me that all the problems you've listed could be avoided once the detailed specifications are agreed on. The microformats project is work-in-progress and most of the issues listed here are ones that are being discussed and addressed. It will of course take time but the issues you've raised don't strike me as sufficient enough reasons to abandon what is essentially a good idea.</p> It seems to me that all the problems you’ve listed could be avoided once the detailed specifications are agreed on. The microformats project is work-in-progress and most of the issues listed here are ones that are being discussed and addressed. It will of course take time but the issues you’ve raised don’t strike me as sufficient enough reasons to abandon what is essentially a good idea.

]]> By: André Luís http://getluky.net/2009/01/08/a-warning-about-the-real-cost-of-microformats/comment-page-1/#comment-310730 André Luís Mon, 12 Jan 2009 15:43:57 +0000 http://getluky.net/?p=400#comment-310730 <p>I feel your pain, but those arguments you've presented are more tied-in with your publishing platform than the concept itself. Still, they shouldn't be ignored. ;) I've seen people implementing hatom in front of me, using Smarty templating engine, in a matter of minutes. Of course it varies from project to project, but keep the eye on the ball. ;)</p> <p>These things are based in (X)HTML and they aim at embedding semantics where they're being shown to the user... so external files representing data has other places, and noone said you can't use them all at the same time (microformats + ical + vcard + rdf + owl + ___)</p> <p>As for validating... As a rule-of-thumb, I've used Operator <em>a lot</em> as validator and it's treated me good, so far. </p> <p>This brings me to yet another point. I think you've overlooked the added value to the user. I know user-agent support isn't half as good as it should be by now, but there are efforts both on the Mozilla camp as well as in the Redmond team. And why not allow power-users to act on your data much quicker and, even, use it to tie in their data spread across the web? I think the usage of XFN on Google Profiles are a good example of how simple implementations of microformats can add a good deal of value.</p> <p>Given all this, I think if you simplify and apply them where they're most suitable, you'll run into few shortcomings. For instance, recurring events are a bit of a stretch for some parsers, but that doesn't render the actual event useless.</p> I feel your pain, but those arguments you’ve presented are more tied-in with your publishing platform than the concept itself. Still, they shouldn’t be ignored. ;) I’ve seen people implementing hatom in front of me, using Smarty templating engine, in a matter of minutes. Of course it varies from project to project, but keep the eye on the ball. ;)

These things are based in (X)HTML and they aim at embedding semantics where they’re being shown to the user… so external files representing data has other places, and noone said you can’t use them all at the same time (microformats + ical + vcard + rdf + owl + ___)

As for validating… As a rule-of-thumb, I’ve used Operator a lot as validator and it’s treated me good, so far.

This brings me to yet another point. I think you’ve overlooked the added value to the user. I know user-agent support isn’t half as good as it should be by now, but there are efforts both on the Mozilla camp as well as in the Redmond team. And why not allow power-users to act on your data much quicker and, even, use it to tie in their data spread across the web? I think the usage of XFN on Google Profiles are a good example of how simple implementations of microformats can add a good deal of value.

Given all this, I think if you simplify and apply them where they’re most suitable, you’ll run into few shortcomings. For instance, recurring events are a bit of a stretch for some parsers, but that doesn’t render the actual event useless.

]]> By: A bit of a rant but one practising micro … « Paul M. Watson http://getluky.net/2009/01/08/a-warning-about-the-real-cost-of-microformats/comment-page-1/#comment-310729 A bit of a rant but one practising micro … « Paul M. Watson Sun, 11 Jan 2009 22:08:21 +0000 http://getluky.net/?p=400#comment-310729 <p>[...] pm on January 11, 2009 | # | Tags: web A bit of a rant but one practising microformat implementer is finding it tough going. I’ve only dabbled, how was it been for you? § [...]</p> [...] pm on January 11, 2009 | # | Tags: web A bit of a rant but one practising microformat implementer is finding it tough going. I’ve only dabbled, how was it been for you? § [...]

]]> By: getluky http://getluky.net/2009/01/08/a-warning-about-the-real-cost-of-microformats/comment-page-1/#comment-310726 getluky Fri, 09 Jan 2009 18:32:00 +0000 http://getluky.net/?p=400#comment-310726 <p>Thank you for the comment. I've known of the hCard validator for some time, but don't consider that a complete testing suite. </p> <p>However, I didn't know about the general Optimus validator that can validate hCalendar, which someone just pointed out to me. I've reported a bug in its hCalendar handling, so I'm going to consider that about as good as Sunbird (mozilla calendar) was at version ~0.3. It wasn't until Sunbird 0.5 that I felt I had a good debugging companion for publishing iCalendar, and that took a very long time.</p> <p>Anyway, i'm totally willing to accept that if a rock-solid validator were available, it would make development go more quickly, but I would still classify it as difficult.</p> Thank you for the comment. I’ve known of the hCard validator for some time, but don’t consider that a complete testing suite.

However, I didn’t know about the general Optimus validator that can validate hCalendar, which someone just pointed out to me. I’ve reported a bug in its hCalendar handling, so I’m going to consider that about as good as Sunbird (mozilla calendar) was at version ~0.3. It wasn’t until Sunbird 0.5 that I felt I had a good debugging companion for publishing iCalendar, and that took a very long time.

Anyway, i’m totally willing to accept that if a rock-solid validator were available, it would make development go more quickly, but I would still classify it as difficult.

]]> By: kl http://getluky.net/2009/01/08/a-warning-about-the-real-cost-of-microformats/comment-page-1/#comment-310725 kl Fri, 09 Jan 2009 10:16:14 +0000 http://getluky.net/?p=400#comment-310725 <p>There <em>is</em> hCard validator. You can test other microformats using conversion tools.</p> There is hCard validator. You can test other microformats using conversion tools.

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